I was overseas when the controversy over the so-called ‘Ground Zero mosque’ began to erupt. So I only glimpsed the headlines at first. Once I began to investigate it, I was surprised to find that the plans are not half as contentious as the fuss suggested. For instance, far from there being any suggestion of erecting a huge mosque right next to Ground Zero, the plan is for a relatively small building, a full two blocks away.
Language is important. We’ve seen how opponents of Israel describe the security fence as a ‘wall’ even though less than 10 percent of it is actually a wall. Likewise, people are calling this project the ‘Ground Zero mosque’, even though it is misleading to describe it thus.
As I have written before, the 9/11 attacks shook me to such an extent that I seriously re-evaluated my view of the world. The first time I visited Ground Zero, I was struck by the enormity of what had happened and what had been lost. I also remember that the site was surrounded by people trying to make a buck out of the tragedy by selling memorabilia. Much of the memorabilia was of dubious authenticity and taste, but things like that happen in a free country.
Nicholas D. Kristof wrote in the New York Times last week about the shame we will one day feel for our intolerance. Indeed. The only opposition to the mosque I have any degree of sympathy with is that which is expressed by some of the 9/11 victims (though some victims are in favour of it). There’s a good reason why we do not allow the victim of a crime to determine the response to it. If someone harmed a member of my family, I would, quite naturally, wish terrible things on them. Likewise my wishes would, quite rightly, be ignored.
I am not particularly a fan of Barack Obama, but when he said that America’s “commitment to religious freedom must be unshakeable”, I think he was absolutely right. To that end he and America can look towards Israel, and particularly Jerusalem, as an example of how the freedom and dignity of all faiths can be ensured. Do we want Manhattan to become more like Israel in its approach to religious freedom, or more like Saudi Arabia?
Concern about extremist Islam around the world is often well-founded. Sometimes, though, people set their aim too widely. Sometimes there is a nasty hint of bullying in the air. I am also increasingly concerned that some of the people who purport to be friends of Israel – particularly in the non-Jewish camp – are not true friends. They are backing Israel as another way of waging a hateful war against Islam.
It might be tempting to overlook these people’s motivations and simply feel grateful for any support. But before we know it we then find members of the ghastly English Defence League (EDL) demonstrating alongside genuine friends of Israel on the streets of London. No excuses or other defensive responses can ever make such an alliance acceptable.
We overlook the bigots in our midst at our peril, be they well-educated speakers or street rabble. Our opponents will quickly notice those on our side who have a wider, more sinister agenda, and will make a lot of noise about it. It’s not good enough for us to point out the obvious hypocrisy: that for years ‘pro-Palestinian’ campaigners have themselves marched alongside the very worst hate-mongers.
We have to do better. Defending Israel is a tough fight and we can only occasionally win the bigger battles. However, there is one battle we can win every day: we must not be dragged down to the level of our opponents.
This is a truly excellent article Chas-one of your finest
Thanks Michael.
I expect some will disagree with what I’ve written. I look forward to hearing their views.
Can I ask any opponents of the mosque to answer one question: How many blocks away from Ground Zero do you believe it is acceptable to build a mosque?
Yes i expect they will Chas, but as you say language is important. To call it “The ground zero mosque” suggests some kind of super mosque is to be built on the ruins of the twin towers .
Some of the press and commentators are suggesting that this is some kind of “spoils of war” act by islamists bent on supremacy. In fact its a community centre with a muslim prayer room built some blocks away from the location. Genuine friends of Israel need to think again before joining in with the likes of the EDL who will probably site it as evidence of a Muslim takeover of New-york.
Sorry, Chas. I think that you are really a good guy but this time you’ve got it wrong (my opinion). There is simply no absolute need to build whatever-it-is there. Be it community centre or mosque. It’s rubbing salt into the wounds of thousands of people who lost their family, friends, acquaitances there. Sometimes there’s a ‘time and a place’ to do things. This is neither the time, nor the place.
Apparently Mohammed split the moon, in reply to your acceptable to build a mosque.. How about there?
Normblog has an interesting and related post today: http://normblog.typepad.com/normblog/2010/08/praying-at-the-pentagon.html
Your a good guy Chas. too good maybe. I remember the news reels immediatly after 9/11 of the rejoicing on the streets of the Muslim world and unfortunatly our own streets, schools and university’s. G-d only knows what celebrations went on in private. I remember seeing Arafats thugs stopping Palestinian children celerbrating 3000+ deaths infront of western cameras, even he had some sense of P.R. I am afraid to say that the enemy know about P.R. and what they say infront of the camera is the opposite to what is said in private.
Chas, great article. It’s easy to forget one’s decency in this battle.
Couple of questions on the mosque:
1) The fact that America is considering/allowing this mosque to be built tells you everything you need to know about America. The fact that the builders wish to go ahead with it despite the controversy, tells you everything you need to know about the buiders. There are plenty of other places to build a mosque in America. Why not choose one of them, at least until the wounds have healed?
2) Islamification of the west is progressing relatively quickly. People are (rightly IMO) suspicious of it and want to stop or reverse the trend. Landmark buildings such as this will be seen as small victories for “Islam”. Should we stop this Islamification and if so how?
Its been 9 years since that terrible tragedy – is that not enough time to heal?
This is not even a Mosque – this is a community centre being built to strengthen relations between the muslim community and their neighbours.
What is this Islamification? People practising their religion? I am not seeing anyone shoving their religion down another persons throat? Other than Jehovahs witnesses.
Theres no loud Azaan prayers.
95% of the muslims just want to get on with their lives.
The 5% who do want to cause trouble shouldn’t be used to paintbrush the rest.
9 years is obviously not enough – hence this controversy.
Islamification is the gradual introduction of Sharia law. It is already possible, for example, to practice polygamy in the UK legally.
I don’t think it’s 5%, more like 10-15%. In the UK 6% of muslims fully supported the 7/7 bombings while a further 26% could sympathise with the attackers. That’s 100,000 UK citizens who supported suicide bombings against civilians.
How do you feel about:
Pope John Paul II ordered the Carmelite nuns to leave the convent they had established at Auschwitz. He was in no way devaluing their heartfelt mission to pray for the souls of the dead. He was teaching them a lesson in respect: This is not your place; it belongs to others. However pure your voice, better to let silence reign.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/12/AR2010081204996_pf.html
Exactly, although better for them to leave voluntarily than be forced out. US law allows for the building of the mosque. So does the chutzpah of the builders.
But the convent or cross was in Auschwitz -the comunity centre (that will contain a prayer room not Mosque) is to be some blocks away from ground Zero
While this is true, it’s close enough to be causing a problem for quite a few people. ‘Abd Al-Rahman Al-Rashed, Al-Arabiya TV director-general (also former editor of London daily Al-Sharq Al-Awsat) made a very interesting comment when he criticized President Obama for supporting the construction of the Cordoba House mosque. He stated that it would be unwise to construct a mosque at that location, saying that no practicing Muslims live in the area, and that the mosque would become a focal point for both the supporters of terrorism and the champions of Islamophobia.
In the end of the day, ‘the mosque’ itself isn’t really the issue.
I simply cannot see how being opposed to the crass insensitivity of constructing a ‘small’ 13 storey mosque sees me aligned with the likes of the EDL Chas. The questions concerning this feature, let alone the crass insensitivity of it all are as follows:
1. It costs $100 million. Where has that come from? That is important because if it is Saudi money, it means this will be a Salafist or Wahabi Mosque. Who remembers the Channel Four despatches programme ‘undercover mosque’? The teachings of Saudi funded mosques are intolerant in the extreme. Of course such concerns apply to all such mosques, not just this triumphalist structure.
2. As the location close to ground zero has caused pain to relatives of victims, have the backers acknowledged this in any way? Answer no of course not. But is the choice of location close to ground zero significant in some other way for the backers and the Imam Abdul Rauf? Well yes he is quoted as ‘”New York is the capital of the world, and this location close to 9/11 is iconic” and was happy that the mosque would be on the site of a building “where a piece of the wreckage fell.” So at the very best he is saying in effect that the notoriety gained by building the structure close to 9/11 is worth it solely for that reason. Screw the families and their feelings. Later the developer Gamal sought to withdraw from the position adopted by the Imam, a standard deception upon encountering the ire they had themselves provoked.
3. The ‘Cordoba’ institute, I take it you’re aware of the historical significance of that name? It is hugely relevant as it suggests that the organisation is harking back to the days of Islamic conquest. Which of course they are by building a large Mosque near the site of 9/11 and in the centre of the world’s greatest city as they see it.
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2009/12/giving-thanks.html
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2010/08/ny-times-scrubs-imam-raufs-controversial-islamic-supremacist-ground-zero-mosque-remark-new-york-is-t.html
I think if you Google this Imam Rauf, you will tend to find that lately he has made moderate statements and is toasted by many as a moderate. However he has also described his project as ‘Dawa from the wreckage of 9/11′. I believe he said the latter in the Middle Eastern edition of a book he authored. I cannot currently find a source for it but I’m sure some Googling will locate it.
I love your blog Chas but I’m with your friend Jonathon on this one. This building is deeply insensitive. Tolerating intolerance is I feel a no-brainer. I am not standing alongside EDLers or similar nutters by making such a point.
Has anyone here read Imam Rauf’s book?
“I simply cannot see how being opposed to the crass insensitivity of constructing a ’small’ 13 storey mosque sees me aligned with the likes of the EDL Chas.”
I didn’t say it did. Apologies if that was unclear.
In response to your questions:
1. You begin by saying ‘if it is Saudi money’ and then go on to make generalisations based on the premise of that “if” being confirmed. Have you confirmed it? If not, then your question is premature.
2. Yes, some relatives of the victims are opposed to it, but some are in favour of it. You cannot speak of or for them as a unified body any more than I can.
3. I will look in to your links, thanks for sending them. I’ve read articles by American commentators who *personally* know those behind the mosque and paint a different picture to yours. I’m open-minded though.
What I’d be interested to hear your response to would be this: how many blocks away from Ground Zero would you consider it acceptable to build a mosque?
An interesting example I have already posted elsewhere, is what happened in Argentina after the bombing of the Israeli Embassy and the AMIA (a Jewish community centre). The Government assigned state grounds for the building of a huge Islamic Centre. It is not even close to the sites of the embassy or the AMIA, but it was greatly felt as symbol and reminder of what happened and who did it, a cruel mock. Moreover, if you walk through the streets of Buenos Aires, you will get a sense of the singling out of the Jewish community buildings; they are the ones with defence posts on the kerb to avoid vehicles from ramming them (remember the attacks occurred 18 and 16 years ago).
I don’t think the building of the mosque in NY is avoidable, but it is certainly intended as a symbol, and I don’t know how I can be convinced of looking at it differently.
There are Muslims who are against the fanatics of their faith who are also opposed to it. So the fact that there are victims who support it is irrelevant. Once can also find Jews who are virulently anti-Israel. This adds no weight to the arguments. They should stand alone. And there is the issue of the call to prayer. I don’t know the laws in the US for mosques, but if they are allowed to make their call to prayer from two blocks away from Ground Zero, that will be what is heard at Ground Zero.
There is scarcely a Muslim population in that area of New York, so who exactly is the mosque going to serve?
And all the claims of tolerance on the Muslim side are laughable. If they were so tolerant they would be sensitive to the feelings of the victims.
“If they were so tolerant they would be sensitive to the feelings of the victims.”
You mean sensitive to the feelings of those victims that agree with your stance.
“And there is the issue of the call to prayer” for the 99th time its going to be a community centre with a prayer room not a mosque -so why would there be a call to prayer?
They should be sensitive to the feelings of those who would be upset. Those who don’t care either way are with respect irrelevant in this regard.
There is scarcely a Muslim population in that area of New York, so who exactly is the mosque going to serve?
There are hundreds of thousands of Muslims in New York. How many do there have to be before they are allowed a mosque?
To those who ask how far away would be acceptable, I ask, how close would be acceptable? Why not let them build it on the site itself! Aha, THAT would be a desecration, but two blocks isn’t? Why exactly?
The reach of the Masjid is the reach of the Imam’s voice when he calls to prayer. Presently the city of Oxford, England is covered by a Dome of Sound. It’s ever so pretty and spine-tingling to hear the fate of Western Civilation sung out in one of its birthplaces…
Finally, The Little Big Horn was declared sacred ground after the battle there, NOT because of the 1000 or so braves who died there but because of the killing of the Great Custer. The killing sanctified the place, and for years the Sioux guarded it and did not allow white men near!
PS. Has anyone asked Imam Rauf if any Jews died on the Twin Towers?
Paul,
That is a great comment post here – thank you for it. Chas’ response is a sham, the kind of triviality I’d expect from a college freshman trying to debate whether or not mandatory seat belts are necessary. I’m sorry your post had to be infected by his juvenile response.
Why do you have to be so abusive and personal in your comments? I am interested in sensible discussion, not tantrums.
Chas and Holgar, Holgar firstly Chas is a friend and there is no need for ill manners. I do believe Chas however you are being a tad naive on this. You’re right I have no evidence that this Mosque is funded with Saudi money, no one knows where the $100 m is coming from. However this Imam seems to have more and more of the stain of Islamic supremacism about him. He has links to Hizb Ut Tahir:
http://carnageandculture.blogspot.com/2010/08/terror-ties-ground-zero-imam-attended.html
Also he worded the Middle Eastern and American editions of his book differently. The Middle Eastern version mentions ‘Dawa from the wreckage of 9/11′. That is hugely significant. It seems to westerners he portrays himself as moderate, to his supporters in the Middle East he says in effect ‘America was attacked because they were Unislamic’. That is of course what ‘Dawa from the wreckage of 9/11 means’.
Chas, seriously friend this is not a small ‘community centre’ it is a 13 storey structure centred on a mosque. The description mega mosque is appropriate. Also is it not extremely insensitive that the opening of it is scheduled for (drum roll) September 11, 2011? It is a monument to Islam, very close to and on the anniversary of a mass murder committed in the name of Islam. Funny isn’t it how often we are reminded of the need to respect the hair-trigger sensitivities of Muslims over cartoons etc, yet this is one aspect of their reciprocal sensitivity?
These are wise words Chas, thank you. It’s easy for us to get emotional about symbolism but we live in the real world and one must also be practical and respectful of the others who share our space. The community is often too insular and so it’s good that your perspective is heard too, I think you will prick some consciences with your post and that is good for us all in the end.
Hey Chas – permitting the building of a mosque or synagogue or church anywhere is, indeed, part of what makes America great. BUT, why allow the building of this large, imposing mosque/community center, even if a few blocks away, while making difficult-to-impossible the reconstruction of a Greek Orthodox Church which was destroyed in the terror that destroyed the World Trade Center complex? See http://www.stnicholasnyc.com/ for more.
The other question I have is – since there are other mosques operating in lower Manhattan (that is my understanding from reports such as http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/14/nyregion/14mosque.html), why 13 stories? A community center, if open to ALL, is a nice idea, but 13 stories is really, IMO, not necessary.
Thanks. How many stories would you accept?
Fewer – I just don’t think a “community center” or mosque needs to be that large, unless it has other intentions – to be seen as imposing, triumphalist, victorious, etc. or to provide more space for “activities” that might not be seen as promoting the same tolerance the rest of America is expected to express… (this depends on, of course, the source of funding and the leadership’s own ideas).
I hear you.
How many stories should be allowed, though?
And how should this be enforced?
Should the limit be the same for all religions, in all areas?
If they must build there, something far more modest, say 6 stories. One may feel that because of the height of many of Manhattan’s buildings, 13 stories isn’t so tall, but I stayed in a 12 storey apartment in New York, and it did not feel low!
Surely the best way round this, particularly as the Greek Orthodox church is not being re-built, would be to refuse permission for any new religious buildings within a designated circumference of Ground Zero.
I think that building the mosque UNDERGROUND so that the muslim worshipers there can actually smell and feel the remaining body parts of their victims would be acceptable. How many stories high do you think is acceptable Chaz? Are you thinking as high as the highest floor of the Twin Towers where people had no choice but to leap to their deaths? Would that be an acceptable height for you?
A bit of light relief from the latest Latma:
“President Obama supports the so-called Ground Zero mosque and says it is in America’s interests for the project to succeed: ‘With a mosque on that site, New Yorkers can rest assured that no one will ever try to crash a plane there again.’”
I am a fan of your blog, but this is one time you and I do not agree on an issue. Here’s my take.
http://unfreakinbelievble.blogspot.com/2010/08/mosque-that-roared.html?spref=fb
It is hard to see this mosque plan in any other light than symbolic. It seems at least probable (certain in my view) that the builders and funders of this mosque see it in those terms also. What I think is so troubling about this situation for many is that while one may see the justice of what Chas says one may also still feel that sickening sense that an important battle is being lost. One can argue that this building represents a triumph for liberal (in the classic sense) democratic values, so why does it feel like a kick in the balls?
I am also an avid fan of your blog but am sorry to say I strongly disagree with your take on this matter. Last week I read comments by two board members of the Muslim Canadian Congress. I think it fair to say they probably understand a Muslim point of view better than I do:
http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Mischief+Manhattan/3370303/story.html
‘MISCHIEF IN MANHATTAN’
‘The fact we Muslims know the idea behind the Ground Zero mosque is meant to be a deliberate provocation to thumb our noses at the infidel. The proposal has been made in bad faith and in Islamic parlance, such an act is referred to as “Fitna,” meaning “mischief-making” that is clearly forbidden in the Koran.’
‘Let’s not forget that a mosque is an exclusive place of worship for Muslims and not an inviting community centre. Most Americans are wary of mosques due to the hard core rhetoric that is used in pulpits. And rightly so.’
Well worth reading and digesting in its entirety. I have been back to that article many times over the past few days.
“I think it fair to say they probably understand a Muslim point of view better than I do…”
Thanks, and I’ll take a look.
On a wider point, one can always find a sub-group within a religion to confirm one’s opinion. Jew-haters do just that with Neturei Karta all the time.
To get to the Cordoba Centre from Ground Zero, you’d have to walk in the opposite direction for two blocks, before turning a corner and walking a bit more. The journey should take roughly two minutes, or possibly slightly longer if you’re heading an angry mob who can’t hear your directions over the sound of their own enraged bellowing -Charlie Brooker
Charlie Brooker at his best
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/aug/23/charlie-brooker-ground-zero-mosque
Excellent piece, Chas – stuff like that is why I come here. Good piece from Norman Geras, too.
I like this from Nicholas Kristof “The first is that a huge mosque would rise on hallowed land at ground zero. In fact, the building would be something like a YMCA, and two blocks away and apparently out of view from ground zero. This is a dense neighborhood packed with shops, bars, liquor stores — not to mention the New York Dolls Gentlemen’s Club and the Pussycat Lounge (which says that it arranges lap dances in a private room, presumably to celebrate the sanctity of the neighborhood).”
Why do so many Republicans find strip clubs appropriate for the ground zero neighborhood but object to a house of worship? Are lap dances more sanctified than an earnest effort to promote peace?”
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/22/opinion/22kristof.html?_r=4
The fact that a “mosque” is being built a few blocks from the former site of the World Trade Center, speaks volumes about America – as does the fact that those who disagree are given time and allowed to be heard.
You have put the cat among the pigeons!
Chas, I am in total agreement with you. It was good to read this.
Fair play, Chas.
Nobody would be happier if the mosque plan gets scrapped than Osama Bin Laden. The people who are trying to stop it are his inadvertent helpers.
A mightily thought-provoking article!
This in the JC
http://www.thejc.com/news/world-news/37146/opposing-911-mosque-antisemitism
Opposing 9/11 mosque ‘like antisemitism’
How pathetic. These people will try to steal any scrap of legitimacy there is going.
Let them build their silly mosque, but don’t let them take the piss out of you as well.
and this
http://www.thejc.com/blogpost/let-911-mosque-breathe-free
Dennis Hale, a Boston College professor and lay Episcopal minister has said it better than I could so I refer you to his piece
A snippet:
“Just in case there might have been some room for doubt about their intentions, Rauf and his partners named the Ground Zero project after the Cordoba Mosque in Spain, which displaced the last Christian church in that city after the 8th century Muslim conquest. (There were still Christians; just no more churches.) It has long been an orthodox Muslim practice to build mosques where Allah’s enemies have been defeated (e.g., the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem, and the Umayyad Mosque in Damascus). The Cordoba Initiative is intended to be a monument to yet another famous Islamic victory. It is, in fact, a 9/11 Memorial, built by the enemy.”
The whole piece is at:
http://politicalmavens.com/index.php/2010/08/22/the-strongest-horse/
I hope you reconsider. But I love your other stuff.
Jerry Cohn
Thanks for sending this link, Jerry. Parts of it have given me food for thought, but there are many obvious flaws in Dennis Hale’s argument.
A selection:
“To build a mosque on the spot where three thousand people died in the name of Islam would be deeply offensive…”
This is misleading. Pretending it is planned for that spot doesn’t change the reality – that it is planned for two blocks away.
“The mosque is hugely unpopular, all over the country (by about 70 percent)…”
So? I live in a country in which Israel is hugely unpopular. That doesn’t mean I’m going to join in with the Israel-bashing.
“The Cordoba Initiative is intended to be a monument to yet another famous Islamic victory.”
Hang on. Just a few paragraphs earlier Dennis Hale claimed that those behind the Cordoba Initiative believe that America committed the 9/11 attacks. Yet here he is claiming they believe the 9/11 attacks were a ‘famous Islamic victory’. At least one of these claims must be wrong.
“And no critic of the Cordoba Initiative has argued that “Muslims” in general should not be able to build mosques. Their ire is directed at this group, and this project, at this particular place.”
So again, I ask: exactly how many blocks away do you believe it is acceptable to build a mosque?
An outstanding response Chas
Since the building that the mosque is to replace was actually made unihabitable by debris from one of the planes cashing through the roof, it could be said that this is part of ground zero.
Chas, I’m pursuing you on this one! Why not let them build in the hole in the ground RIGHT ON THE SITE? Would that be acceptable? If not, why not?
This counter-factual method of arguing has become much too popular in recent years c.f. what would the MSM say if George Bush had said that the Austrians speak Austrian…and it really is counter-productive to the merits or demerits of every subject.
So Chas, you employ counter factual; I suggest it is lazy and hypocritical! And I ask you again…how close is acceptable?
Oh, and on the point that Israel is unpopular with majorities in the West–counter factual argumentation aside–what has this to do with my feelings about a mosque on the site, sorry NEAR THE SITE of 9/11?
The opposition is not based on legalisms; it’s based on feelings. “We had rather in the ways of Good follow our enemies than in the ways of Evil walk with our friends!” You consider the building of the GZM a Good; the majority of Americans consider it an Evil. You consider hatred of Israel an Evil; the majority in England consider it a Good!
WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO ABOUT IT CHAS?
“oH reason not the NEED! Our basest beggars are in the poorest thing superfluous; allow not nature more than nature needs and Man’s life is cheap as beast’s” You can’t argue with feelings Chas; it is boorish and hypocritical to denigrate and deny the feelings of others, ESPECIALLY when you disagree and are powerless to do anything about it!
So you think GZM is Ok when the majority don’t! And you think Israel is OK when the majority don’t. And you like Arsenal when the majority don’t (soorry for the cheap shot!) I’m beginning to see a pattern here….
Great piece – I notice the answer to your question – how many blocks away is it acceptable – doesn’t elicit a logical and sensible response.
I’ve spoken to 4 people who are against the Community Centre being built 2 blocks away and even they were dumbfounded at this question.
A heart warming post.
For years I looked at the anti-semitic works of neo-nazi’s with great sadness, and really worried that the belief in the ‘jew conspiracy’ was going to bring about another pogrom. These days I see many more blogs and pundits proclaiming Islamification as the new global conspiracy, many of the authors being loudly pro-Israel and non-Jewish. I still worry about the pogrom, maybe even more so.
I can only hope for Peace.
2700 dead innocent Americans in New York City because of islamic jihadis and you have the nerve to boil it down to “How many blocks away is it acceptable….” How about a statue of Adolf Hitler to go up next to the Holocaust museum? How far should that be away?
This isn’t a case of law or permission or rights. The President of the United States made this insanity an issue of “rights” but we can forgive the feeble minded here. This is a case of a group of Americans asking another group of Americans to respect wishes. The developers of this “community center” as they want to call it now have refused to build this elsewhere which leads me to beieve they actually do feel the need to impose it upon the site.
But back to your question – how many blocks away? How far should that mosque be from Ground Zero? 2737 blocks away – figure it out how i came up with that number. It isn’t a normal run of the mill mosque, you see. It wasn’t needed to accommodate an overflow of muslim worshipers. No, it was needed as an “in your face” statement from the very start – the reason for the existence of the Cordoba Initiative is as clear as the statement of it’s name – CONQUEST.
Go ahead and spin it all you want – tear it down into 20 different arguments but the fact of the matter is this – the majority of New Yorkers don’t want this mosque there, the VAST majority of the victims families of 9/11 don’t want it there but the mosque initiators have taken this request for tolerance and sensitivity and squashed it.
NO MOSQUE AT GROUND ZERO.
Adolf Hitler was responsible for the Holocaust, through his individual actions. If you think all Muslims are responsible for 9/11 then you are nothing short of prejudiced. Calling others feeble minded does nothing to change the intellectual paucity of your own feeble arguments – you are just as imprisoned by your own fear as those on the other side, and just as self-righteous. You do your cause no favours whatsoever.
Chris,
First of all, I was unaware that it was Adolf Hitler that personally put every single Jew into the concentration camps – but I guess if you are saying there were a vast majority of “moderate” Nazis, then I guess I have to believe you.
As for the “feeble minded” remark, if you take off your set of multicultural rose-colored glasses for a moment, you’ll see that I was referring to Obama, not anyone here at this blog – i was criticizing Obama’s spin on this issue where he tried to make it an issue of Constitutional rights, which it is not.
And lastly, I am not part of any “cause”, sir. I am an individual American who witnessed a brazen, horrific attack on my country and suffered through the murders of thousands of innocents. And if I have a problem with a mosque towering over a piece of ground where we are still finding identifying body parts of those victims, then that is my deal.
“And if I have a problem with a mosque towering over a piece of ground where we are still finding identifying body parts of those victims, then that is my deal.”.It’s not going to be a mosque it’s a community centre with a prayer room. Yes your problem is your deal, sounds like your going to have to live with it.
Michael,
There’s no way a person of even average intelligence believes that this is a community center with a wee prayer room that holds a few muslims. No one is that gullible. So, Michael, I’ll assume you are in favor of islamic expansion and conquest worldwide.
@Holger Awakens It’s not a question of belief but of fact. The fact is that it’s going to be a community centre. As for your assumption- ok you got me there -i am in fact part of
Anjem Choudary’s advanced guard
Michael, why if it is just a ‘community centre’ is it necessary for it to open on September 11 2011? It is a 13 storey structure and it is very difficult in fact impossible not to see it as a deliberate provocation. The Imam (community centres rarely have Imams btw) has attended conferences organised by Hizb ut Tahir and seems keen to revel in the notoriety of building this place near to ground zero. That is why he said in the Middle Eastern version of his book ‘Dawa from the wreckage of 9/11′.
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2009/12/giving-thanks.html
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2010/08/ny-times-scrubs-imam-raufs-controversial-islamic-supremacist-ground-zero-mosque-remark-new-york-is-t.html
http://carnageandculture.blogspot.com/2010/08/terror-ties-ground-zero-imam-attended.html
I am fully aware that perhaps some of the people opposed to this mega Mosque are xenophobic to some extent. Then again the overwhelming majority are decent people who can see this for what it is. A monument to slaughter by an Imam who is in favour of jihad. Please stop calling it a ‘community centre’ that is extraordinarily naive.
From your lips to G-d’s ears.
“NO MOSQUE AT GROUND ZERO.”
As we established some way back, there are no plans for a mosque at Ground Zero. Why don’t you brush up on some basic facts before launching into another rant?
The Fogel,
You established nothing. Nice try.
Chas, you seem to have stirred up a hornets’ nest here. There seems to be a range of views from supportive at one end through to disgust at the other. Some commenters seem to have been careless in their language, but I have been trying to hear what they mean, rather than nit pick the detail.
OK, so where do I stand. On balance, I am against the build. I agree that you have written a thoughtful and insightful piece. I agree that it is unhelpful to refer to the Ground Zero Mosque and that we should base of stance of fact, not on propaganda. However, I think your questions of “how many blocks” and “how many stories” are not the right questions.
America started out as a Christian nation, begun by those who needed religious freedom from the tyrants of the Christian establishment in England. The ethos was that the nation is Christian, founded on Christian values that overtly acknowledge the God of the Bible. This nation said that the individual must have religious freedom, but there was, as I see it, never any intention that this individual should change the nature of the state.
Out of this tolerance comes the attitude that accepts a Muslim or Hindu living in America. This is the same attitude as the Biblical injunction on the Jews to give a place to the alien. In both cases, there is an implicit injunction of the alien to recognise and accept the nature of the state.
The problem is that while that tolerance is good, the alien does not always live up to their part. Let me accept the figure that 95% of Muslims are happy to fit in, but it doesn’t matter, because I am not here concerned about the individuals, I am concerned with Islam itself. (In any case, it is usually a minority who care enough to get something done.) Islam is fundamentally about taking over the world. It is fundamentally NOT under that implicit injunction to recognise the nature of the host state.
So, my problem is that tolerant America leans towards allowing the Cordoba project, while Islam wants to take advantage.
I believe that America and Israel should both at least consider allowing anyone in to live and work who wants to recognise and respect the respective nature of the host nation.
However, on balance, in my opinion, FWIW, I don’t believe that this is the basis for Cordoba House.
Oh Jonathan, do be careful my love. You say Muslims want to take over the world but that is what the haters say about us Jews and I doubt it’s true of many people on either side.
A key difference between the two is that:
1) No Jewish leader has ever called for Jews to take over the world, YET they are often among the people best qualified for leadership positions.
2) Many muslim leaders, since the beginning of this very externally oriented religion, have publicly called for a global muslim empire, YET they are among the least qualified to actually lead and therefore have to attain and retain their rule through violence rather than merit and popular support.
Lynne,
This is a fundamental difference between Judaism and Islam. While a gentile may choose to convert, Jews make that hard and don’t go inviting the world to join. Islam enjoins its people to work towards taking over the world. (You could say the same about us Christians, but at least some of us don’t want to kill Jews and Muslims along the way! (-: )
Oh Chassy, look at me being all political. Alan will be impressed (or maybe not).
There is an interesting article on Harry’s Place today: http://hurryupharry.org/2010/08/24/the-forces-of-unreason-descend-on-ground-zero/
If they have the legal right to build the mosque (permits etc.) no one else has the right to stop them. America is a democracy with a constitution. If we do not fight for the religious rights of Muslims, it is a question of time until our rights are also squashed.
Having said the above, I am under no illusions that this is not an in your face victory dance. I would feel quite different about the whole “bridge” idea, if at the same time this group was building a mosque in NYC, it was also trying to build a church in Saudi Arabia for Christian visitors and workers. I would give my full support to such a dual project.
I do believe that the mosque (if built) would eventually just blend in with the rest of the downtown area, and not be associated with any controversy.
Stan
Good post. Well thought out (and written) piece.
Stan: “If they have the legal right to build the mosque (permits etc) . . .”
Have they got their permit yet by the way, or is the application process still ongoing?
I don’t know.
Stan
Apparently half of he site is owned by the power utility, ConEd. Regulatory approval is required for ConEd to sell their interest. I imagine there will still be contentious public hearings.
As with everything about Islam, so many things are mysterious, twisted and mostly not understood by the Western mind – which leaves many of us trusting little about Islam when an imam is involved. Our Muslim neighbors, the Muslim couple in the grocery line, the Muslim parents of my child’s classmate whom I meet at PTA – I hold in the highest esteem. A room full of Arab men on their Muslim prayer rugs, I’m wary of. How many Muslim worshippers call out their imam for hate speech or jihad-talk? The answer is none that we know of. It would be unheard of to berate an imam.
I do believe the Burlington Coat Factory is Ground Zero. Had the building not been empty when Mohammad Atta’s flight broken apart and the landing gear shattered through the ceiling of the building, more would have died. If you believe that the landing gear did not crash through the building and come to rest there, even the NYT has confirmed it, although there is a mighty effort to make the story a lie.
There is definitely a mosque, not a just a prayer room, in the plans for this building. How the “community center” meme become so entrenched? When we first heard about the plans, the mosque was to be located on the 13th floor, then that was corrected to the 15th floor. I’m not sure which is correct. This is first a mosque, and secondly a community center, with at least 6 floors to be used for Rauf’s Shariah Index Project which rates countries by their “Islamisicity,” and where Muslim leaders from all over the world will make their base in the U.S.
For those supporting the mosque, have you considered that this will become the American Mecca? That every imam will want to preach in this place, including every radical that hopes to grow his career by evoking Allah over the ruins of the World Trade Towers. This will be the most famous mosque in America, and no matter what you or I think about it, or what moderate Muslims think about it, radical Muslims will seek the infamy that this trophy mosque will provide for them.
If Anwar al-Awlaki could return to the U.S. without facing arrest, he would blaze a trail for this mosque.
Would you believe Rauf, knowing that he believes Osama bin Laden was “made in the U.S.A,” if he promises never to let a radical inside the mosque – from now until the mosque no longer stands?
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/03/21/1079789939987.html
West must act to end jihad: Imam
By Frank Walker
March 21, 2004 -
The Sun-Herald
The US and the West must acknowledge the harm they have done to Muslims before terrorism can end, says an Islamic cleric invited to Sydney by Premier Bob Carr.
New York-based Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, who impressed Mr Carr at an international conference last year, arrives in Sydney today for two weeks of meetings and public talks.
Speaking from his New York mosque, Imam Feisal said the West had to understand the terrorists’ point of view.
In a move likely to cause controversy with church leaders, Imam Feisal said it was Christians who started mass attacks on civilians.
“The Islamic method of waging war is not to kill innocent civilians. But it was Christians in World War II who bombed civilians in Dresden and Hiroshima, neither of which were military targets.”
Imam Feisal said the bombing in Madrid had made his message more urgent. He said there was an endless supply of angry young Muslim rebels prepared to die for their cause and there was no sign of the attacks ending unless there was a fundamental change in the world.
Imam Feisal, who argues for a Western style of Islam that promotes democracy and tolerance, said there could be little progress until the US acknowledged backing dictators and the US President gave an “America Culpa” speech to the Muslim world.
His major talks will be at noon on April 1 at St Mary’s Cathedral with Cardinal George Pell and Mr Carr, and a public lecture at 6pm at the Wesley Centre in Pitt Street.
Chas,
In the light of Imam Feisal Rauf’s comments in 2004, how do you feel about his proposed plans to build a mosque?
Imam Rauf himself initially called it the “Ground zero mosque”. He changed his wording later when somebody must have told him that was not cool. So, according to Rauf it is at ground zero and it is a mosque.
Chas,
Your EDL insertion is a non-sequitur. Sorry to say this, but you should think more carefully if you want to be taken seriously.
I only want to be taken seriously by people I take seriously!
You CANNOT be serious!
Congratulations on hosting the first civilized discussion of the (Ground Zero Mosque, Muslim Community Center, Project 51, Cordoba Center, Mega Mosque, etc.) I’ve seen since the story broke. Well done!
“How many blocks is it acceptable to build the mosque” you ask?
How many months should grieving widows wait until they start dating again?
How many minutes a day should I exercise in order to achieve a spectacular look?
How many feet of water are required until a response from flood-aware agencies is obtained?
I’m surprised at your candor. It’s not a matter of numbers, as in number of blocks. It is a matter of decency, of humility, of empathy. It’s a matter of common sense, of respect, of “mentshlejkeit” if you understand the word. It’s a matter of a series of values so foreign to Islam, so meaningless to the likes of the lousy “imam” Rauf and its wife and their millionaire waiter El-Gamal. I would guess these values wouldn’t be lost to an otherwise smart and well-centered fellow like yourself. But then, life is always full of surprises.
Give me an answer to how many months should a widow wait until dating again. Then I’ll try to answer how many blocks away.
This is one I have to disagree with you on.
Whether technically legal or not, at best this is insensitive. At worst it’s sticking two fingers up to the dead.
Let’s make it simple. When there’s a Synagogue, sorry, a Jewish Community Centre, “a full two blocks away” from the huge Mosque in Mecca, let them build their Mosque.
Chas,
Do you agree with Imam Rauf that the West has to understand the terrorist’s point of view?
Should we show more empathy towards them?… “Yes, we understand how you feel. We have been complete bastards. We are worthy of your hatred.”
Chas, I’ve been following the GZ Mosque saga on jihadwatch.org for the last few months, and on atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com, and the links they provide.
In light of what I have learned there, I cannot agree at all with any of the things you’ve written in this post.
What you have written is what a normal decent person would think and feel, but unfortunately (as usual) the issues tied to the establishment of this mosque are far uglier than would immediately appear, including things like funding -from the ususal rabid Islamic sources – and Imam Rauf’s political associates, including his connection to the Gaza flotilla terrorists and the Free Gaza movement.
The organisation is itself called the Cordoba initiative – a revoltingly significant name given how Islam has treated dhimmis under it, yes, in Spain too! In fact, Spain was Not a Golden Age happy place for anyone living under -and i use the term advisedly – Islam.
What do you make of the fact that Rauf and Co deliberately chose to establish this mosque on SEPTEMBER 11, 2011?
Hardly a coincidence!
See the above sites for more, including the upcoming Sept 11 protest about it.
(I’d go into more detail, but it’s easier for people read coherent accounts over at jihadwatch.org).
cheers.
Jill I salute you and support your input I had a chat with normal liberal friends here in Italy,( both academics that spent time in US) and both called it a shameful act even to think of building a Mosque near the Grand Zero , IMO it is a provocation and Hutzpa
Thanks EvaM!
Italy itself has had a lot of problems with these sorts of things and is no doubt looking to see how the US deals with this. However, Italy will have to rely on its own sense of pride because the US gave itself up to idiocy (as has Australia actually) by electing the Great Liar Messiah Wannabe currently in office.
One thing to remember – this mosque may go up, but it does not have to stay up.
Ciao, bella!;) (the only Italian I know)
“Hang on. Just a few paragraphs earlier Dennis Hale claimed that those behind the Cordoba Initiative believe that America committed the 9/11 attacks. Yet here he is claiming they believe the 9/11 attacks were a ‘famous Islamic victory’. At least one of these claims must be wrong. ”
Chas – many Muslims often scream that the Holocaust was a big Jewish lie, inmmediately following it with statements that he should have finsihed the job.
Don’t expect logic on these grounds from Islamists. They deem themeselves the centre of the universe, and change language according to their emotional needs, as all tyrants do.
Chas,
Are you worried about being labelled “Islamophobic”?
Haas,
You write:
“As well as wanting to support Israel I’m also disgusted by antisemitism in general, as I am by all bigotry from sexism to homophobia and Islamophobia.”
typo: Chas not Haas!
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article6619.shtml
How Barack Obama learned to love Israel
Ali Abunimah, The Electronic Intifada, 4 March 2007
“Over the years since I first saw Obama speak I met him about half a dozen times, often at Palestinian and Arab-American community events in Chicago including a May 1998 community fundraiser at which Edward Said was the keynote speaker. In 2000, when Obama unsuccessfully ran for Congress I heard him speak at a campaign fundraiser hosted by a University of Chicago professor. On that occasion and others Obama was forthright in his criticism of US policy and his call for an even-handed approach to the Palestinian-Israeli conflict.
The last time I spoke to Obama was in the winter of 2004 at a gathering in Chicago’s Hyde Park neighborhood. He was in the midst of a primary campaign to secure the Democratic nomination for the United States Senate seat he now occupies. But at that time polls showed him trailing.
As he came in from the cold and took off his coat, I went up to greet him. He responded warmly, and volunteered, “Hey, I’m sorry I haven’t said more about Palestine right now, but we are in a tough primary race. I’m hoping when things calm down I can be more up front.” He referred to my activism, including columns I was contributing to the The Chicago Tribune critical of Israeli and US policy, “Keep up the good work!”
Chas although I agree that all Religions and their followers have rights, that is as long as they don’t forget that with rights comes responsibilities. People bereaved through homicide, as with other victims of crime, experience a ‘second wound’. This is related to their perception that other people, society in general, or particular agencies have let them down. One central aspect of the ‘second wound’ is the bereaved person’s lack of control. The killer has taken so much away and put them out of control, and at times it can feel as though those whom they would expect to help them are doing the same.
That is why Chas I strongly disagree with you about this, not just for the memory of those murdered on 9/11 by the cowardly terrorist attacks but also for the living victims, the family, friends and colleagues of those murdered. A ‘second wound’ is almost inevitable but a 13 storey ‘second wound’ definitely not
Interesting point, Eva M…
“Arriving at the site (it’s about a three minute walk in case you were wondering), I saw three young New Yorkers holding up signs in support of the mosque. Wishing to get at least some idea of the nature of pro-Mosque New Yorkers, I discussed the issue with all of them and was pleasantly surprised: they were normal, young liberals like me, able to balance an appreciation of the threat of Islamic jihad with an understanding that not all Muslims want to take over the world.”
More here: http://www.standpointmag.co.uk/node/3348
Latest from jihadwatch.org
Mosque’s Saudi Patron,”
from Investor’s Business Daily, August 26:
Islamofascism: New dots are emerging from the probe into who’s behind the Ground Zero mosque, and the radical Muslim Brotherhood is coming into view.
While a couple of U.S. nonprofits — the Cordoba Initiative and its sister, the American Society for Muslim Advancement — are coordinating the New York project, they hardly give the full picture. A Saudi charity has sunk more than $300,000 into ASMA. It’s called the Kingdom Foundation — headed by Alwaleed bin Talal, the Saudi prince whose 9/11 relief check was rejected after he blamed the attacks on U.S. foreign policy.
Bin Talal is a major financier of Muslim Brotherhood fronts in the U.S. His foundation is run by Saudi hijabi Muna Abu Sulayman, who appears on ASMA’s Web site as one of its “Muslim Leaders of Tomorrow.”
“Her work,” according to her official bio, “focuses on increasing understanding between Islam and the West through establishment of academic centers and programs, both in the Middle East and the United States.”
Sulayman, who spends much of her time in the U.S., happens to be the daughter of Dr. AbdulHamid Abu Sulayman, “one of the most important figures in the history of the global Muslim Brotherhood,” according to the Global Muslim Brotherhood Daily Report.
So? The Egypt-based Brotherhood is the parent of Hamas and al-Qaida and the source of most of the jihadi ideology and related terror throughout the world today. Citing its secret U.S. archives, prosecutors say the Brotherhood has a plan to “destroy” America “from within,” and is using its agents and front groups in the U.S. to carry out that strategy. Like the mafia, it’s highly organized, and uses shells and cutouts to launder money….
I agree with the comment some way above. The people who are bitterly opposed to this mosque are imprisoned by fear.
They need to become less fearful, or they are doing the terrorists’ job for them.
By opposing the mosque they are also doing the terrorists’ job for them.
http://www.peacewithrealism.org/headline/ground_zero_mosque_rauf.htm
No comment needed
AbuKhalil’s blog, the Angry Arab News Service, was launched in September 2003, and as of June 2005 received between 30,000 and 35,000 hits per month. The name of the blog is taken from a phrase used by a TV producer to describe AbuKhalil’s perspective.
According to the Los Angeles Times, the blog is “known for its sarcastic but knowledgeable commentary”, and “stands out for its sense of humor in the dour left-wing landscape.”[1] Ken Silverstein writes that the blog often becomes “a furious stream of consciousness that lacks paragraph breaks or other typographic niceties” (though AbuKhalil is nevertheless “a terrific writer and an insightful political analyst”).[3]
Most of the blog items are sent to AbuKhalil by his readers/fans, who quotes them and thanks the source with a footnote after the paragraph.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/As'ad_AbuKhalil
As’ad AbuKhalil Arabic: أسعد أبو خليل (born March 16, 1960) is a Lebanese-American professor of political science at California State University, Stanislaus and visiting professor at University of California, Berkeley.
http://angryarab.blogspot.com/2010/08/my-appearance-on-aljazeera-regarding.html
Abu Khalil: ” We should acknowledge that there is a system of contempt towards Islam in this country just as there was Nazi contempt for Jews. This exceeds the reactionary right-wing’s embrace of this hostility. Instead, this prejudice penetrates the essence of political and popular culture in this country.”
“The center’s imam, Abdul Rauf, bears responsibility for idiotic idea (building a mosque at Ground Zero), which has fueled islamophobia on official and popular levels.
However, Obama bears the brunt of responsibility before he was even sworn in as president because he failed to defend Muslims’ right to live as equal citizens in this country. He distanced himself from that entirely.
Finally, I’d like to say in response to American politicians who talk to us on television screens and say to us in Arabic “assalamu alaikum” (peace be upon you) in broken Arabic, thinking that they’re fooling us. I tell the Arab audience that is listening that this is not part of a vibrant dialogue in a democratic society. Does Mr. Hussein dare claim that anti-Semitism in Nazi Germany used to be part of a vibrant dialogue?”
” I disagree with focusing on certain elements within the Republican Party. That’s because the current Democratic administration bears significant responsibility for failing to respond to islamophobia during the electoral campaign. It also distances itself from defending believers’ and non-believers’ constitutional rights as per the First Amendment. This week alone, President Obama issued a statement this week reminding the United States that he follows the Christian faith. This is proof that when he is called a Muslim, it’s an accusation, contrary to Mr. Hussein’s assertion that he is unaware of the extent of hostility towards Islam and Muslims in this country.”
“This is not to undermine the right of any Muslim to establish a mosque anywhere in this country. However, considering the cultural climate, which has been hostile towards Muslims since 9/11, the Muslim and Arab community should have been consulted about this. In that clip, [Abdul Rauf] refers to improving relations with the West, Christians and Jews in this country. I ask him, did this lead to improvement of the relationship or deterioration?
Second, he says the idea aimed for bringing religions together. The problem we face in this country is the public’s connection between terrorism and 9/11 and Muslims. This man came along and said “I’ll establish a mosque for you meters away from the World Trade Center,” as if to fuel islamophobia in this country. That’s what happened.
Furthermore, I’ve lived in this country for about 30 years. I know every activist who works for Palestine. I’ve never heard of this man in my life. Also, the New York Times has mentioned that he considers himself a supporter of Israel.”
i just love Arab supremacists comparing attitudes to Muslims with the way the Nazis treated Jews, especially as a prominent Muslim Haj amin El Hussein directly contributed to the deaths of thousands of Jews in concentration camps by his lobbying of Hitler to kill them. let’s not forget the Muslim SS death didvisions that killed at least 40 000 people – Jews included – in the Balkans.
This comparison is a straight-out lie. Te Islamic way is war til all are conquered and live under Islam, Muslims who are sane included.
It’s so nice to know that being a professor allows you to publish stuff with no basis in reality, and fabrications.
Doesn’t exactly establish confidence in the excellence of your credentials though.
Hrars Pat Condells take on the issue
http://www.youtube.com/user/patcondell?blend=1&ob=4#p/a/u/0/oJQ4bwGPRuk
And yet another piece of the puzzle: Michael (NY Mayor) Bloomberg’s financial interests in Saudi Arabia…
http://bigjournalism.com/mfrazier/2010/08/27/follow-the-money-could-mayor-bloombergs-business-interests-in-the-middle-east-have-anything-to-do-with-his-support-of-the-ground-zero-mosque/